Why are Men's Mental Health Issues so prolific in Hospitality & What can be done about it?

Timothy R Andrews (00:00.33)
Welcome to the first episode of the new season of Talking Hospitality. I'm Timothy R. Andrews.

Tracey Rashid:

And I am Tracy Rashid. And I am so excited that we're back. We're back. New logo, new branding, new website, new business cards, new email. We've done everything. We've been doing everything. We have been working hard over the summer for you, our listeners, so that you have a place to go to find out all about our website, find out all our episodes, find out our blogs, our courses, all the things that you need to have a better experience within your hospitality career.

But today, today we're delving into the critical yet overlooked topic in our industry, men's mental health in hospitality. In this episode, we tackle the question, what are the barriers men face when seeking help and support with their mental health?

According to Richard Healthcare, one in eight men in England faces common mental health problems. 77% of men polled said they experienced some level of symptoms such as anxiety, stress or depression. And the top three issues are work-related issues, which was 32%, financial pressures 31%, and then health concerns, which was 23%. UK figures for suicides of men in hospitality found that male hospitality workers were 7% more likely to die by suicide than males in the general population. Welcome to another episode of Talking Hospitality.

But before we go on, how are you Tim?

Timothy R. Andrews:

It's been a while. It's been a while, hasn't it? But it's not like we've been sitting there doing nothing, Tracy, is it?

Tracey Rashid:

No. We haven't been putting our thumbs, no. How the hell are you doing?

Timothy R Andrews:

I'm good. It's good to be back. It's good to be tackling this great topic. And I'm looking forward to the episodes we've got planned as well. Our listeners should be very excited. It's going to be different this year. We're trying a few different formats out, which is very exciting. Sarah Kettel is also joining us for season four, which is great news for us too. Yeah, we've got some great stuff going on. We've got celebrities. We've got influencers. We've got change makers for the industry. We've got it all.

Tracey Rashid:

Are you going to make me fangirl again, Tim? Like seriously?

Timothy R Andrews:

I literally have a bet on with Sarah to see how quickly I can fangirl you. It won't take long. It really won't. It's probably next episode actually. It might even be this episode. It might even be this episode. Who knows? We have some really awesome guests on today. We've got some pretty awesome guests who are change makers in their own right and making huge difference to our industry.

Welcome to another episode of Talking Hospitality with your hosts, me, Timothy R. Andrews and Tracy Rashid.

Tracey Rashid:

So it's the start of season four and we have got a lot to talk about. But today our focus is mental health and in particular that of men's mental health within hospitality.

Timothy R Andrews

Shows like Boiling Point and The Bear have brought to the front some of the pressures working in hospitality. And we ourselves have actually talked about mental health on this show.

Tracey Rashid:

When I was researching for the show, I was shocked at just how prevalent the issue is, in particular for men, and why there's a need to raise awareness. So I'm absolutely, I'm just so glad that we can discuss this for our platform.

Timothy R Andrews

This topic is huge and much bigger than we can fit into one episode. But to help us address these issues and to find solutions or provide advice on how to tackle them, we have a great lineup of guests from the hospitality industry, ready to share their views, experiences with you.

Tracey Rashid:

We don't have just one guest or even two. We have five, a first for us. We have Joe, Patrick, Craig, Frven and Aidan, yet crucial issue. Please introduce yourselves to our listeners, but rather than having a big bombardment of noise and voices, I'll introduce you separately again. So Joe, introduce yourself please. Hi, I'm Joe. I'm the founder of 200Hospitality. We help hospitality businesses fill their venues.

the right people by helping companies become standout employers. Thank you. Amazing. Aidan, would you like to go next? Hi, everyone. My name is Aidan. I'm one of the one of the founding partners of Organic Recruitment, and we help businesses find the right people for their teams. In-house recruitment outsourced. Great. And Craig.

Timothy R Andrews (04:45.674)
Hi everyone, good to be here. I'm the founder and director of Hospitality Talent Partner, MUM. We focus on recruiting managers and leaders for forward thinking hospitality brands. Brilliant, and Friven, you're next. Hello everyone, my name's Friven. I'm an architect, but more recently, the key expertise or my offer is to have founded the WAD Movement, and the WAD Movement is W-H-A-D,

which is an acronym representing well-being and happiness through architecture and design. This is my book and amongst many projects that I've created and I've been involved in, I've got plenty of hospitality projects and I realised that this topic that I champion is very relevant for the hospitality sector. At last but by no means least, Patrick. Yes everyone, how we do it?

My name is Patrick. I'm the, or actually Paddy. Look, I only get called Patrick when I'm in trouble. My name is Paddy. I'm the founder of So Let's Talk. We work on the mental, physical, and financial health of hospitality professionals. We've run sessions for over 30,000 hospitality professionals to date, and our mission is to 86 the silence, which I'm guessing if you're a hospitality listener, you'll be able to recognize what that means. Brilliant, thank you. Brilliant, thanks guys. We're so happy to have you on today. Yeah, thank you all for coming last minute as well.

That was a stemmed out of a conversation with Craig. Yeah. And then you were all really willing. So thank you very much for that. Um, and yeah, Patty, uh, I, Michelle kept calling you Patty and I was like, who's she talking about? So the other day, and I said, you're coming on anyway. So thank you guys. Our goal today isn't just to discuss the issue. Um, but we also want to understand and find out if there are solutions or advice. Um,

to the mental health struggles faced by men in our industry. I think all of us here have stories how it's either affected ourselves or people very close to us. And that's why I've kind of wanted to speak to us all today. That's why I wanted you guys to come on. According to a 2019 survey by Hospitality Action, for you who don't know, it's a UK charity that supports hospitality workers. 82% of male hospitality workers in the UK have experienced mental health issues.

Timothy R Andrews (07:07.31)
That's so high. It's, if you look at the national average, it's 53%. That is massive. Most of the mental health issues that they face are stress, which was 73% of them, anxiety, 64% and depression, 52%. So the question I want to ask you guys is, has this always been the case?

hospitality has a particularly high incidence of mental health issues, or is it something that's growing, or is it both? It's hard to say whether the industry's always been that way because we've not always had stats. And that's why conversations like this are so, so important, right? Because what it does is it raises awareness. It allows us to spotlight something that's not been talked about. That's the whole point of why I jumped on this conversation as soon as I heard Tim that you said, look, we're gonna be having a conversation about men's mental health.

I was like, I'm in, sold. Because those stats haven't existed for a long period of time and now they do. But what we can say is that we have been perpetuating archaic working practices for generations inside of the industry. We've been doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result and we all know what the definition of that is, right? So yeah, the stats always haven't been there. They now are, which is a good representation of the noise that's being created about it.

I think the next step for us is how do we move away from awareness and get into some action? How do we create tangible change inside of the industry? Friven, I see you nodding a lot there. My observation is that it probably has not been that different all along, but as Paddy has mentioned, you know, we don't really have the stats to really validate exactly how the trend has been, but obviously common to every single person who lives on this planet Earth, I mean, we've gone through the Covid period.

The Covid period has thrown has really thrown a spanner in the works and changed a lot of things. I mean even pre-pandemic, I think the individual, man or woman, at the front of house of any hospitality service industry has to portray and kind of present oneself in a slightly different persona as compared to what one authentically is.

Timothy R Andrews (09:28.03)
at the back of house. I mean, I'm referring to the front of house, back of house from a design perspective because that's the language I'm used to. It's almost, it's very hard because you have to repackage yourself when you are at the front of house because in order to do your job well, you have to present a positive, pleasurable and optimistic viewpoint almost in all aspects of how you, from how you look to how you speak. Whereas at the back of house, I feel that

you know, most of the time there isn't enough empathy. And so there is this disjoint and there is a transition that every single individual has to go through when they're shifting, you know, going through the door from the back of the house to the front of house. And in a tighter and more challenging economic times, such as today. Aidan? Probably social media and messaging in general has played a big part of that.

We're here talking about mental health and I think specifically male mental health. If in hospitality, you know, lots of kitchens are still quite probably more male dominated. I mean, there's lots of women coming in, but any kitchen I walk into is probably more men in there. And you talk to the guys and we spend time with them and they're in there, they're focused on a particular task, perhaps in the kitchen for eight, nine, 10, 12 hours. And then when they do take a break,

they stop and they check their phones and there's messages and there's, there's things there, whether it's looking at other people on Instagram, they're outside having fun or doing things with families or whatever. And, and of course their texts and WhatsApps and things are coming through as well and they're, you should be here or you could be doing this. And I think if we look back, you know, 10, 20 years, perhaps there wasn't that same social media and instant messaging. You were there at your job and that's what you were doing. Whereas now you're there at your job and you take a break and you look and you're bombarded with that.

people that are doing the things that you perhaps might wish you were doing, even if you're enjoying a job. I think that's quite an interesting point that you make as well, because, um, in terms of job roles, uh, do you think there are particular positions that are affected more than others by mental health? Yeah, I think it's maybe looking at hospitality as an industry versus other industries.

Timothy R Andrews (11:49.21)
When you look at mental health being an issue for individuals, one of the biggest things that we talk about in terms of trying to improve it, all the things that can be damaging, is the environment. It's things like having regular sleep patterns, it's things like having a routine, it's things like contact to friends and family, it's things like having good quality nutrition, it's things like not overindulging in alcohol, it's things like not overindulging or even engaging in drug abuse. Now we know that all of these things as an industry were predisposed to be...

the deck is stacked against us. So, you know, it's interesting thinking about, well, was it always as bad as it is now? Maybe, maybe not, but is it definitely worse than other industries? I think probably, you know, other industries and looking forward then, will it change? Well, we can, there's loads that we can do, but I think the first thing is just acknowledging that the deck is kind of stacked against you in this industry to a point, but.

It's not all doom and gloom. I think the other thing is in terms of, we've got some incredible superpowers on our team in hospitality, because again, one of the strongest things you can do to help is to talk and is to communicate. And naturally we're good communicators. We have to be, it's part of the job description, right? So yes, the yes, this thing is working against us, but there's some really cool things on our side too. Paddy? Yeah, I'm listening intently.

Um, there's a couple of things that I wanted to pinpoint. I, and some of them are the stats. Uh, we have the highest rates of drug abuse out of any industry in the world. Right. We have the third highest rates of alcohol abuse out of any industry in the world. Number one and two being heavy mining and construction, which shocked me until I started to do some research and I was like, okay, that makes sense. One of the things that is the most prevalent when I'm ever communicating with the industry is the lack of vulnerability within our leaderships. Right. So within our leadership teams, there's a lack of vulnerability.

Can I swear by the way, because, because I, my, my first general manager position was at the age of 20. I was taught to leave my shit at the door. I'm already male, right? I already identify as male where it's, I, it's a stigma for me to talk about my feelings. It's a good job. I come from a family of coaches, so I'm getting told to leave my shit at the door. And then I have to put my hospitality mask on, right? Even if I'm feeling crap, I have to walk into the venue and make other people happy through service.

Timothy R Andrews (14:13.046)
Now what happens is that emotional labor starts to weigh heavy because I need to offload that connection somewhere, right? After work, I'm not allowed to be my pseudo self. I'm not allowed to be who I really am because actually I'm feeling really shit. I've not seen my family for a long time. I was probably out last night taking drugs. I was probably drinking heavily. I probably not had a lot of sleep and I've turned up to my shift and now I'm smiling and waving. And what happens is we go through the life of being a leader inside of hospitality, being told that being vulnerable is a weakness.

collecting everybody else's emotions and feelings throughout the shift. And then after the shift, we need to release that. We need to get rid of that, those connections that we've made and that kind of mask that we've been wearing. And we do that through the vehicle of alcohol and drugs again. So we finish a shift, we sit down with our colleagues, we have a drink, that drink turns into five drinks, and then bad choices are made when it comes down to our health. So one of the things that I'm really promoting at the moment is promoting vulnerability within leadership teams.

And as we know, there's a high percentage of leaders inside of the industry that are male. It can be as simple as promoting a pre shift and saying to your team, look, I'm not feeling good today. Can you be kind with your language? I'm feeling a bit crap. Now what happens is when a leader opens up and is vulnerable in that space, the rest of the team looks at that leader and goes, do you know what? If somebody in a senior position can do that, maybe I can do the same. The first time I ever talked about my relationship with drugs and booze.

was after talking to one of my senior leaders and she turned around and said to me, Paddy, I can't deal with your crap. Leave me alone for five minutes. My anxiety is going through the roof. I walked away from that thinking, geez, that was direct. I actually came back and said, do you know what? I've listened to what you've just said and I've been having a really challenging time myself. And the only reason I'm telling you this is because you've just been so open with me. And that's where we start. That's where we start. We start whereby promoting vulnerability, being human beings inside of the industry and not human doings, we're not robots.

with we've got feelings and emotions and they are superpowers. I'm going to get off my salt box. Yeah, I think vulnerability is where we start with this. I'm really glad you brought that up, Paddy, because as you do, I was sat down watching the football with my dad yesterday and they actually had a segment on men's mental health. So they had two footballers talking about, you know, the fact that, you know, you're supposed to not be vulnerable, you're supposed to suck it up and you just get on with your job.

Timothy R Andrews (16:36.758)
but they were saying, you know, sometimes you do need to talk to someone. Sometimes you do need to cry. Like, you know, there's nothing emasculating about crying. It's just a way of releasing emotions. And it was, I was so surprised to see it during halftime on, you know, a big platform that sports are shown, which I won't name. And it was, it was just really refreshing and just made it really encouraging to know that everyone's kind of looking at it. But it's just a fantastic thing to see that these, these things have been discussed.

quite irritated by the expression man up. Yeah, when we were preparing this, you were very adamant that, so perhaps you wanna talk a little bit about that and take it to the guests? So when my son was two, I think it was just past two, we were in a shop in Croydon and bless him, I shouldn't laugh, but I mean, he survived it, so he's fine. But we were walking out of the shop and it was a full ceiling to floor window and door.

and he completely misjudged it and walked straight into the window. Like had no idea that he was going to walk into something. So you can imagine the impact. He didn't brace himself or anything. He just went straight into it. And the shopkeeper ran over really like, oh, my gosh, is he OK? Actually, he didn't say he's OK. Is she OK? Because he had really long hair at that point. And he said, is she OK? You know, was like literally almost going to pick him up and hug him and make sure he was OK. And I said, oh, no, he's a boy. And then he just kind of tapped him on the shoulder and said, well.

you're okay then stop crying. And I thought, wow, he's like two, he's still a baby. Like anyone who walked into a window like that is gonna cry. He's absolutely gonna cry. So, you know, for me that phrase of man up, it's like, come on. So the question is really how does the high pressure environment of hospitality contribute to these challenges? I was wondering if we could address that to Craig. Masculinity. I'm a bit stumped on that, if I'm honest.

I kind of come at it from a human angle. I've never experienced it firsthand. So I've never looked at, I've never struggled with it. I've struggled with it as a human, admitting that I've had problems, but I've never really felt it was linked to my masculinity, if I'm honest. It was more unable to share because I was frightened generally what people would be saying. I totally relate to that. When I suffer from depression, I certainly, and anxiety.

Timothy R Andrews (19:01.406)
I didn't relate it to my masculinity. However, in certain situations, so when we had lockdown, I'd lost my business and I wasn't able to see my mom after my dad had died. Um, that was the first time I actually felt emasculated and I never knew what that meant more as other than it was a word that people banded around normally about macho blokes talking about other blokes, but, um, because I wasn't able to, to protect my family. Um, because my, the, the

figurehead had gone. And in the past when I had my business, I could have thrown money at it at least, I couldn't even do that. So that was the first time that I ever understood what it meant in a societal sense, what being masculine was about. And that of course causes all sorts of intense pressure on you psychologically and mental health wise. So there you go, I've just shared some of my story. But...

But yeah, it's a thing and I think a lot of it's unsaid and we don't always know it. So I think a lot of it is there. I think it goes back to what you were saying about being human and I've always kind of, we've spoken a lot about front of house and back of house. Um, I tend to speak to managers and leaders within businesses. So I tend to work at a certain level and that level of person within a business, more so over the last year, having navigated COVID, which we've mentioned a couple of times now.

The pressure has been there for all of those leaders, trying to hold businesses together, trying to look after their teams. I think it's really important to remember those people because I think sometimes they do get overlooked on a day-to-day basis when we're talking about mental health and how to look after our teams, who's there for our leaders. And I'm sure Paddy does some work on that in terms of coaching. I'm gonna say something controversial, but I hope you can just give me a minute just to explain why. I have worked in...

some quite intense masculine environments. And this is the controversial part. Not always is that a bad thing. And I think just wanna voice and say, sometimes working with a group of lads that's having fun and having some, whether you call it banter or laughs or whatever it is, and pushing each other, you know, being pushed. Like, come on, you can do that. You can work a bit longer. You can work a bit harder. Sometimes that is good fun and it is healthy.

Timothy R Andrews (21:24.314)
I knew as a young boy, a young man, certainly, being told, come on, you can push yourself a little bit more than this. And sometimes that can be good. What's so, so dangerous though, and the reason why I don't think it's a good place for work in general is that can cross over and can become toxic so easily. Working with an employer or a mentor who cares and knows you've got another hour in you, you can do better than what you've just put out.

can drive you to improve and to be better than you were before. Sometimes you do just want to, you know, especially as a young star, did want to just, I want to clock off and go to the pub. No, come on. Let's, let's refine what you're doing. Let's do it again and do it better. And that can be good. The reason why I won't advocate that. And I don't talk about that being, you know, in general, when I'm working with people is the crossover line between that becoming a toxic environment and bad for people is so fine and so close. It's just, I, I often, I don't think it's worth the risk.

I think that it's outdated and shouldn't be put forwards. It's a very fine line between strong leadership and bullying. And the difference is what you said, Aidan, it's care. It's somebody knowing that you care. It's like, I'm doing, this might hurt for a little bit, but I'm doing it for your benefit versus I'm doing it for my benefit, or worse, I'm doing it for my ego. Brilliant, thank you. Yeah, without a doubt, I think what we're talking about here is culture.

right? And this is a buzzword that's being trucked about all of the time. Now a culture is a value plus a behavior. The values are set by the senior leadership team and the behaviors of your team match that. And if your values are archaic, if you're a C-suite, if you're a board member, if you're a business owner and you've not revisited your values in 20, 30 years or at all, and you're still talking about long hours, hustle culture.

You're a trooper if you can go out and get drunk and still turn up to your shift. I'm going to reward you with booze and shout at you the next day when you don't turn up. If you're doing all of this stuff and you're expecting any different from your teams, then you are living in cookie land that doesn't exist anymore. You are now in a position where you have a responsibility as a leader to talk, to be vulnerable, to address values and to update them and then communicate them with your team.

Timothy R Andrews (23:42.494)
One of the biggest things that I recognized as being a manager inside of the industry is that I used to suppress my feelings by trying to fix others. Right. So I was, I was ignoring how I was feeling because I was always creating solutions for everybody else. I never once listened to understand my team. I always, I was always listening to respond to them. And now that I've started to work in this world, especially with my partner outside of the industry, asking the question of, do you want me to listen or do you want me to listen and respond? So powerful. But because I was in the ego driven.

quite masculine in my approach to management, that was never a thing. You don't show any weakness, you always are on, you're always fixing, you're always ready to serve other people before you serve yourselves. So I think revisiting that, let's have a look at culture, let's have a look at our values, let's have an honest, vulnerable conversation as an industry about how do we progress? How do we change so that it matches 2023? Gen Zs are now wanting to join our industry and looking elsewhere.

because they're looking at some of the job descriptions where we're giving, what is the law as a benefit? It's archaic. They're now asking different questions. Can I get a life balance? Is there an equity equality, diversity and inclusion plan? I didn't ask those questions. How many hours do I work? How much do I get paid? Can I drink on shift? Right. Times are changing. And we have to move with that. We have to move with that. So starting to be vulnerable and recognizing that we don't have the answers. And you know what? We might need to listen to understand our teams and not to respond to them.

and remove that toxic masculinity of always being right, always being on, and always being ready to fix, because that is just not sustainable. What Paddy's mentioned about values and behaviour equating to maybe workplace culture or general culture is interesting because I think many business leaders, especially male leaders, misunderstand that they're so remit and their primary objective

is to deliver business performance, business success, revenue, profits. What's interesting is of late, and probably always has been, but it's even more present nowadays, is the fact that the right values and the right behaviours, specifically when they are authentic, actually will spear us towards the best business results. So it's almost like as if...

Timothy R Andrews (26:06.69)
The work culture is a vehicle rather than an end in itself. It's a journey. It's by motivating, getting the team to be really comfortable and to be themselves. And when they're happy, they do their best. And the way to be happy is they are being allowed to be the true person. And when the true person is a happy person, they deliver the best hospitality service, you know, for the industry.

But of course it's simply put, but it's difficult to do. But the methodology is about being authentic. So I describe, I mean, in my book and in the way I describe my own journey of depression and battling with it, I mean, we never get out of depression. It's kind of, it's the magnitude. I mean, I woke up today and I wasn't feeling that great, to be honest, but it wasn't that bad. But I learned mechanisms of how to cope with it, right?

So we always have anxiety and always have depression. And so to an extent, every single person must have stress because if we don't have stress, it is a big problem as well. But it's about being authentic and then learning how to communicate that. And then when we, especially when we're communicating or facing another person, in particular our teammates, to remove the cloak that we have. Some...

You know, the male bosses and male leaders, when they go to work, they put on this cloak. It's like Superman, you put on this cape. And you know, it's like, that's when you can perform and you can fly. But if we strip that off and just like the actual normal person, we probably could become better leaders and better managers. And we could also be better team members because together everyone achieves more. That's what I abbreviated team, right?

together everyone achieves more. So it's like a stronger and more powerful entity when we can relate and really understand each other in very authentic ways. I think that's a really crucial thing you just said there, Frivvind, that a lot of leaders don't think of themselves as part of the team, and that they're just leading a team, but actually you have to be part of that team and understand that everyone has a different way of growing and developing in their role. So some might like a little bit of pressure, as Aidan said.

Timothy R Andrews (28:25.046)
But some might need a little bit more nurture and is understanding the people that you're leading to get the best out of them. Thank you. Before we get to the final part of the podcast, what I want to do is, Thriven, what you work focuses on environment a lot in your book. And it's something that in a previous podcast with Nathan Craigie, we spoke about how raffles are making the environment for their team.

to resemble the sort of experience that some of the guests have. So they get food that the hotel cooks for its guests. They get, they've made the staff room as a continuity. When they go behind those closed doors, it still feels like it's part of the hotel and it needs some stuff. Perhaps you could just say a few words about that for everyone, about maybe a couple of things that people could do that could improve the environment for their team members.

That's a very good question, Tim. Thank you very much. So I feel, obviously I advocate the impact and the power of space and environment to us, to every single one of us. I mean, we all exist in some form of human construct in today's world, right? Whether indoors or even outdoors. So there's a strong connection in how we feel and the emotions and how we can remain calm and maybe be focused about...

being as best as what we are aiming to do at any single moment. I've observed that in most hospitality, I mean I'm referring to hospitality, let's say in a hotel, you know the back house is always kept to the most basic, you know it's because we're looking focusing on the ROI being driven by the customer's experience but what's interesting is that the customer's experience comes from what? The physical carcass of the front of house as well as

probably more than half the actual experience that they're receiving from the individuals, the staff, as well as other guests. And if you go into a space and you see all the other guests being really, having a good time and really smiling, each of us has a bullshit indicator, right? I mean, you can't deny that. And you know whether someone's lying and pretending. Instinctively, you can. So you know whether that pleasure, that joy and that comfort is coming.

Timothy R Andrews (30:49.25)
from the true innermost being and when we can achieve that it makes a huge difference. So in a highly competitive world today where I believe in the conversation earlier we're talking about how it is difficult to get the best talent in all sectors and in particular in the hospitality industry across all roles right and how do you get the best talent by paying them more or giving them

more day off, not really. When they come to work, they want to be able to wake up in the morning and feel that spring in the start. They feel like they're gonna go and do something with the mates, I mean, people who are colleagues, but they are like team members, and they are like mates and friends, and they're just banding together as a tribe. I feel that spaces, especially common areas, rest areas, and even very basic facilities, like the bathrooms and the changing rooms.

are the clear places where an individual who's working in the hospitality industry could feel that they're being taken care of. And it's the messaging. As we all know, it's not so much the physical, the category of the materials or how expensive the products are, but it is when you feel that the people above you, the people who control the purse strings, care. And they want, they have your best interest at heart.

They want to make you feel good and have a good day so that you can do the best work. When you can feel that you've been cared for, I think you do your best. I mean today we're very familiar with working from home, so in a way they're working at the workplace but it's almost like as if the workplace is pseudo home. So those are some of the interesting kind of suggestions that I will put forth to...

If I have a chance to motivate or really influence people who control the purse strings in the hospitality industry. Thank you. Thank you. Sorry, Aidan, I think you wanted to say something off the back of what everyone was saying. Yeah, and really, yes, I'm still back up for what everyone said, because it was such a good point. And it actually links in a little bit to what Craig was saying as well. There's so many things that employers can do to help people feel better. And

Timothy R Andrews (33:08.642)
Definitely the initiatives like Walk for Wellbeing, brilliant, you can tell the mark of a company, will they support things that are beyond their normal core business, support people doing these things, get behind them themselves. But particularly with FrevensPoint, I'm very lucky I get to visit many beautiful properties in London and Dubai as well. And a great mark of the business is if I visit them at 11 or four.

and have a look and join whoever I'm meeting at or near the staff dining area. I can tell you now that most people in my team and it's pretty much open secrets, those hotels or businesses that look after their team with good dining options, a nice space to eat, whether it's the restaurant itself, if they're a restaurant or if it's a hotel, certain hotels have beautiful, and other businesses have beautiful staff dining areas.

functional, but they feel nice as you walk into them. You're like, okay, this is going to be a nice experience. I can get the nourishment I need to see me through the day. And there's something other than pasta and chips. There's, you know, there's actual proper nourishment there. You can tell a lot about a business and how their team are likely to be feeling by walking around at 11 and four and see what people are doing. One of the things that comes up quite a lot is, you know, we're not going to get into a debate about family, we'll have a different conversation on that another day.

But when we talk about the hospitality community often, it's quite segmented, right? We're quite segmented and yet Craig managed to pull off Walk for Hospitality. And that brought in a real, a real sense of community about addressing the issues that we're facing. Craig, how we are going to do a separate podcast, of course, but.

What came out of that for you in a nutshell? So I guess Walk for Wellbeing came out of COVID. Again, we're gonna mention that word, but it came out of a time that was really challenging for a lot of people. People were isolated, people had lost a sense of focus, were financially challenged, had mental health challenges. So we created Walk for Wellbeing to bring people together.

Timothy R Andrews (35:30.514)
at a time of separation as much as possible. And we actually did the first walk in bubbles. Boris had everybody in bubbles of six or eight. So, you know, that first walk was small in terms of numbers, but also down in groups of eight across the UK. And that's now evolved to a real community event where...

which I guess is a community event on so many different levels. I mean, I wrote a list the other day of 25 reasons the walk exists. And it's, it's everything from bringing people together, giving people an opportunity to meet others that they don't normally meet, talking about mental health, sharing experiences, promoting the work of hospitality action, et cetera, et cetera, raising money. Yeah. Important, but not the, the kind of the crux of the event.

That's what it's become. And I think the walk is a really good place for companies and individuals to start. I had an interesting conversation or several interesting conversations with people when I was putting the walk together about wellbeing strategy and people strategy. And I actually had people say to me, oh, we've done our strategy and we can't commit to this. But it's a super simple initiative.

that doesn't need to be part of your strategy. And it sounds like I'm promoting it here, but it's something super simple that with a huge impact on so many levels. So question for you, because obviously you did a great event early in the year, bringing some of the smaller businesses, smaller hospitality businesses together. And you've got one again in January coming up. Have you found...

for smaller businesses, are there any sort of particular issues related to mental health that are coming through that you've picked up on? The biggest issue that independents have got, and we're not just talking, we're not just talking mum and dad cafes on the corner, we're talking anything up to 20 sites, you know. The problem they've got is, going back to what Paddy said earlier, is the leaders of that organisation have this immense pressure, and I know because I've been there, that you have to wear the cape.

Timothy R Andrews (37:46.622)
You have to be able to fix every problem. You have to be, you have to always have the answer. And unfortunately that becomes habitual. You stop asking questions. You stop asking for help. And unfortunately, what, when it comes to bad, what the result is bad management practice a lot of the time, because we don't have access to, we don't have big HR teams, we don't have necessarily re and I'm talking really specialist operators or really specialist learning and development people that.

a huge chain would have as completely standard. What we have instead is people who've got into the senior positions through experience network, background, opportunity. There's usually a very good reason for that because they're very good at some very specific things. But there's always going to be gaps in our knowledge. None of us can be an expert in everything. So what we try and do by bringing people together is give people the opportunity to

learn from all these individuals and learn from these specialists in these specialist areas. So ideally the whole point of these networking events and these communities that we put together is to give smaller companies the access to these experts without necessarily, and they want to right, this is the thing is they know they need to do it and they know they want to but what holds them back is two things, it's they don't have the time to put it together.

they don't have the time to commit to it or to research the right person. And they don't have, even if they do find that right person, they don't have the resources to bring on an 80 grand a year HR person for a team of a hundred people, it just doesn't make sense, right? Or 200, 500, it doesn't make sense. So that gap between an independent that's trying to do the best they can and the big boys with 200 sites, it's a chasm they can't cross.

So that's really why we try and do these events and put these people together is to give people that access. And the point for us is the people. So I've come up through this industry, I've been in it since I left school, and I've seen the good, I've seen the bad. And the bad can really do some damage. I've been bullied at work. I've had, I'm not going into details, but I've seen some really bad practice. And I've also seen some really wonderful practice. I've seen teams where you just can't wait to go to work, where you happily come in on an extra day.

Timothy R Andrews (40:11.022)
shifts. Like you don't want to leave, it's part of, you know, going back to what Friven said about that third, that sort of, that second home, that third space. I believe in it, I know it, I've seen it and there's other industries that don't have that, that we have, that we don't, I don't think in hospitality we have work friends, you know that whole idea of work friends? I don't think we have work friends, I think we have friends. Like there's a real, like, there's some real cool things about this industry but it's, yeah.

some really strong pros but there's some really strong negatives. When we're talking about what hospitality professionals are looking for they asked and I'll find out where it was it was either the burnt chef project, CAM or hospitality action one of the great companies they asked 8 000 hospitality professionals what they're looking for from a new role and nowhere near the top five was money right number one and two was to feel valued and it was a work-life balance so when we're talking about that that's exactly what people are looking for from our industry when

feed ourselves, how we serve ourselves first in the trade. It's all well and good creating really nice environments for people to eat in. But if you're not respecting a boundary of people being able to eat their food without being asked about work, then all of that is completely gone out the window. I couldn't mindfully connect with my food for a whole decade of working inside of the trade because people were asking me about PDQs not being on charge or whatever it was that was going on inside of the venue. So.

I, we have one simple rule that I ask everyone to try and abide by when they're working inside of the trade. And it's if you've got food in front of you, please don't speak to me about work. Brew dog do this really well, right? So they have a pause. They have a little sign where someone's eating inside of the venue and they have a little sign that says pause. And it means don't talk to me about work. I'm eating. So I think that's, that's really, really powerful. One thing that moving on to what Joe was talking about, and I agree with you so, so like vigorously here, Joe, is that the, the gap that I see is that I work.

where it's SLT with so many large nationals who have a health and wellbeing budget. Although they are the first things to be caught, which is ironic, right? When, when things happen, that's the first budget that goes. But they're small independence and we're not talking small businesses. We can, as Joe said, it can be 10 to 20 venues. They don't have the budget to be able to pay SLT to come in and run sessions, Joe to come in and run sessions. Yes, they might be able to access what I call cure based things on EAP programs. When people need support, they'll give it to them.

Timothy R Andrews (42:31.83)
But some of the specialist areas, they don't. One thing, if anybody's listening to this, if you own a hospitality venue and you have any kind of deals with drinks brands, they have marketing budget. We've not been tapping into these marketing budgets for a long time. We've been asking for bar blades and t-shirts. Nobody wants them or needs them anymore, right? So if you're working with a drinks brand, ask them, can you help us with our health and wellbeing budget? Can you start to give us some money? I don't need any more bar blades. I don't need any more t-shirts. I don't want them neon sign.

Our team needs to feel valued. They want to work life balance and I don't have yet the knowledge to be able to provide them with that. So let's go and access that budget elsewhere. And if it's not coming through the great events that Joel's running, the money that Craig's raising for hospitality action, there are big, big organizations with huge budget that we don't spend. And that's just one thing that I'd like to put out there. I've been doing this for a while. We work with Franklin and sons.

They give us a heck of a lot of money last year. They pay for a lot of our sessions for us introducing them to new businesses. We do the same with Daze Lager. So we started to create drinks brands partnerships to help us pay for sessions for businesses that can't afford it. Now, obviously I have to align with the brands, right? Maybe Ray and Nephew, although a great brand might not align with what I'm looking to achieve inside of the industry with being an overproof room. But if you are listening to this and you own a business and you don't have a health and wellbeing budget, which is completely valid right now.

please access some of the support through the drinks brands that you work with, they've got budget. That's amazing. If I might just chip in there as well, Paddy. It doesn't have to be drinks brands. We, as a recruitment partner, we also have provided courses that we've held ourselves and we've also provided external partnerships as well. We've sent people in because it's the same. They're paying us, we're taking money for recruiting.

And it's a building teams. Um, if those people are going into venues and businesses where they're not happy, then they leave and it's counterproductive. So we have sets for certain clients. We've put it out there too. So any businesses listening to this don't have to come to us, but it doesn't have to be a drinks provider. There are other businesses as well that want your business to succeed and might have a vested interest in helping you support, so reach out to a recruitment partner or, or others.

Timothy R Andrews (44:50.786)
There's people out there that want businesses to succeed. So we've obviously come up with some great solutions on how organisations can tap into unspent cash, which is what we all wanna do at the end of the day. But in regards to culture, which obviously we mentioned before, how can we create a culture where men, like regardless of their role, feel comfortable discussing mental health at work or even at home? For me, I think it starts with reframing the conversation about mental health.

It's so I put a post on my Instagram every year on World Mental Health Day and it's just a little not like a confessional it's just like a personal anecdote about my story my journey. I get an outpouring of messages every single time I put it up from the same people and from different people. Just thank you thank you for sharing, thank you for putting my head up and saying this is something that has affected me.

and hear some things you can do. But one of the most powerful things that people talk to me about when they do message back is just about reframing the conversation. To think of mental health not as something that's your fault or something to be ashamed of. It's something that's happened to you. So it's not a broken leg because to achieve a broken leg...

You might have been running down a hill too fast. You might have gone and done an extreme sport. You might have been drunk and fallen over. So there's reasons that you can be traced back to that. Mental health isn't like that. If you have poor mental health for a window or for a season or for a lifetime or for a day, it's more like having type one diabetes. It's more like having an overbite. It's not something that you've done.

it's something that you have. So if you're a chef, you haven't burnt the steak, the gas is out. There's a very big difference there. So just reframing the conversation to say, this is just something that I'm experiencing, is very, very different. It's your car's broken down, not because you didn't MOT it. I didn't crash the car, the car broke down. There's a big difference there. So it's just really important to just think of it as it's not your fault, it's just something that's happening to you.

Timothy R Andrews (47:11.126)
Thank you, Jo, very good analogies there. So finally, if each of you can provide an answer in regards to what you would like to see change in the industry to better support mental health, especially in the roles that are prone to these issues. More openness and more honesty. It's as simple as that. It's just not being afraid to communicate. We're good communicators in hospitality. We know how to talk to people.

So just talking about even a tiny bit, just saying, I've experienced this today. You can leave it there. You can go into more detail, but take it in small steps. Just having a little conversation saying, can I talk to you about my mental health at some point? Don't even have to set a date on when that conversation is gonna be. Say, can I, would you be open to that conversation? You'll be, I guarantee the person's gonna say yes. I guarantee the person will probably be a bit flattered that you approached them. There's no downside. And then if you feel a little comfortable with that.

then set a time for the conversation and then just talk about what you've experienced, leave it there, you can go, you can, you can spoon feed this. This isn't a buffet. Okay. So that's the main thing for me. Thank you very much. We've been lovely talking to you and meeting you all. Okay. Thanks so much. Cheers. I'm going to go a little bit more niche. I'm going to talk about how we promote intergenerational conversations. Generational blame inside of our industry has been rife, not just inside of our industry, but outside.

And as we know, a lot of managers, a lot of leaders, a lot of owners are male. Now what's happening is that some of those senior leaders are looking at the younger generation and blaming them. They're saying that they're entitled, they're lazy. They don't want to work as hard as we used to. And then some of the younger generation are looking at the people that own businesses and saying, you've ruined the economy. I can't buy a house because of you. You've ruined the environment. You're old school. You're bigoted, right? And what we get is we get a blame culture. No one's listening to understand each other.

Everyone's listening to respond and blame. And what I'm going to ask, if you are a leader inside of a business, open up intergenerational conversations and listen to understand, please don't listen to respond to your team members. Give your teams what they want and not what you think they need. That takes a lot of vulnerability to recognize that you don't have the answers and to listen to understand your teams. What you're going to do then is create a cohesion and the narrative with inside of your business that you are working together to a goal.

Timothy R Andrews (49:36.094)
And that is a work in progress. Because these habit formations have taken decades to form. So how do we change them overnight? We don't. So yeah, really simply promote intergenerational conversation between the men inside of your business and listen to understand each other. I have a fun fact on that actually. We have for the first time, four generations working in the workplace at the same time. It's never happened before, four generations. So what you're saying is very true, very true. And Aidan.

I was just trying to work out then, four generations, how old and how young, but yeah, thank you. I think to answer your question though, what changes can the industry put in for men's mental health? I don't think the answer is one, there's not one big thing. When I've struggled with my mental health or I've witnessed friends, it's rarely one big event that they can happen, but more often than not, it's a series of tiny little things that build up, build up and snowball.

If I could ask the industry as a whole, just try and tackle it one little thing at a time. Do one nice thing each day for a colleague. Listen, if you think a friend's going through something, reach out to them and make that part of your business, encourage that within your business. Yeah, so I think for me, it's about a commitment to do better generally. So we've spoken about a lot of different things today. I think...

you know, a lot of the onus is on leaders and owners within businesses, but I think we all have a responsibility and I think we all have a responsibility and opportunity to make a difference. I think sometimes we get so bogged down on labels and initiatives that we forget about our daily interactions actually probably having the most impact. And I think for me, that's what I would see, what I would love to see within our industry more than ever. For me,

I think amongst many things, what's really relevant is for leaders and managers to exercise fragility, to really articulate and express and communicate to the team members that they are as fragile and as vulnerable as anyone else. And it's to appreciate and come to terms with the fact that in today's world, the more fragile you are, or rather not that you're trying to be fragile intentionally, but to reveal the fragility.

Timothy R Andrews (52:00.79)
It's actually a powerful thing because it opens up the dialogue and opens up the communication. It lets the team members and everyone that you're working with understand that we are actually one human being to another human being. I mean it's interesting because in the day and age of like how you know on social media everyone's talking about AI and you know making ourselves no longer relevant but the most relevant thing is that the AI will never be human. And for us to review that we are human beings

you know, what can I do to help you today? That is very powerful and being demonstrating and revealing that we're fragile can be a very useful tool. Being fragile is important. I do. Yeah. It's authentic. Gentlemen, lady, thank you very much for today. We have come to an end, sadly. I feel like we barely touched the surface, but we have talked about a lot in a very short space of time and I'm anybody that's listening, I recommend you go back and listen again.

because there's a lot in here. So gents, thank you so much for sharing your insights and experiences today. Thank you for pulling this together at last minute. Yeah, thank you. Please remember to check out our extra resources on our website, www.talkinghospitality.com where we have more episodes on the subject of mental health, blogs for more research and courses that can help provide you with the skills and knowledge needed to help you or your colleagues.

who are dealing with some of these issues raised today. Stay tuned for more episodes of Talking Hospitality, where we'll continue to explore and discuss the topics that matter most in our industry. Don't forget to like and subscribe on Apple podcasts, Amazon Music Unlimited, or wherever you get your podcasts. Here's to a healthier, more supportive hospitality industry. Stay awesome, everyone.