How Can We Create Women Leaders in Hospitality?

Timothy R Andrews
00:00:00.480 - 00:00:04.281
Welcome to Talking Hospitality. I'm Timothy R. Andrews.

Tracey Rashid
00:00:04.433 - 00:00:12.561
And I'm Tracey Rashid. Today we're diving into an inspiring yet challenging topic, Women Leadership in Hospitality.

Timothy R Andrews
00:00:12.713 - 00:00:24.045
We joined by Monica Or, Marsha Barnett, Michelle Righini and Michelle Moreno to explore the landscape of female leadership within our vibrant industry.

Doriane Woo
00:00:33.485 - 00:00:34.905
[Theme Tune]

Tracey Rashid
00:00:35.245 - 00:00:55.253
Indeed, Timothy. Despite women making up a significant portion of the hospitality workforce, their representation in leadership roles tells a very different story.

According to recent statistics, women hold less than 40% of all managerial positions in the hospitality industry. And the numbers dwindle the further up the executive level you go.

Timothy R Andrews
00:00:55.349 - 00:01:23.875
And that's kind of quite thought provoking, isn't it Tracey? So our aim today is to not only discuss these issues, but also to offer solutions and tips for hospitality women leaders and professionals.

So today's question is how can we foster an environment where women not only thrive in leadership roles, but also feel empowered to climb the ladder of success?

Tracey Rashid
00:01:24.495 - 00:01:28.839
So let's start with Monica. Would you like to introduce yourself to our listeners?

Monica Or
00:01:29.007 - 00:02:17.265
Hello. So my name is Monica. I am the founder of Star Quality Hospitality consultancy.

So I work with the independent hotel owners looking at their business structure, their operations and service delivery. The ultimate goal is that they can create memorable guest experiences. I'm a fellow of the Institute for Hospitality.

Previously I was also chair for their London branch and I'm also an Amazon best selling author. So I've written three books on the hospitality industry.

In what I call the Star Quality series, we've got the Star Quality Hospitality which is about running a hospitality business.

There's a Star Quality Experience which is all about creating memorable guest journeys and then Star Quality Talent which is all about inspiring people to have careers in hospitality industry.

Tracey Rashid
00:02:17.605 - 00:02:20.085
Amazing. And yourself? Marsha, please.

Marsha Barnett
00:02:20.245 - 00:02:55.417
Hello, my name is Marsha Barnett. I am the co founder of the Caribbean Food Collective and the UK Caribbean Food Awards.

I have over 10 years experience of managing and direct in a Caribbean restaurant and that experience I realized there's no support for Caribbean food businesses and decided to set up, along with my business partner Dawn Burton, the Caribbean Food Collective which acts as a trade and support for Caribbean food and drink businesses. And we also put on the first UK Caribbean Food Award last October sponsored by Just Eat.

Tracey Rashid
00:02:55.441 - 00:02:58.345
Brilliant and Michelle Righini.

Shell Righini
00:02:58.505 - 00:03:06.065
Thank you. My name is Shell only. Michelle. When I'm in trouble, I'm clearly in trouble already, Tracey.

Tracey Rashid
00:03:07.845 - 00:03:09.585
Always, always.

Shell Righini
00:03:09.965 - 00:04:15.613
I've got 18 years experience working in the industry, mainly focusing on front of house spa roles, management operations and I always love anything involving training. So I've had quite a few training in development roles.

I then after Covid down to experiencing a really severe burnout, developing a few chronic conditions. I've had to step back from the restaurant floor.

I started my own podcast, We Recover Loudly, which highlights the heavy high levels of addiction we have in our industry to kind of open up those conversations. And that's been going for about 10 months.

And this month I began Radical Hospitality, which is a business that is going to create change within the space of hospitality on issues such as addiction and how we deal with people who are suffering with these challenges, gender divide, people with neurodiversity, how we can support them better and many, many more them effectively coming into the space and saying, well, this is how we've always done things. Why don't we dare to do it a little bit differently?

Tracey Rashid
00:04:15.749 - 00:04:17.125
Thank you, Shell.

Michelle Moreno
00:04:17.205 - 00:05:13.125
Hello, I'm Michelle Moreno, founder of QAB Leadership. I come from an ops background, so I was 25 years in operations as an ops director. I worked internationally, which gives you perspective.

Hospitality runs the same in every country you go to.

I decided that it was time to take a step back from being on the floor constantly, all them hours that we know is challenging for everybody in our industry. And I decided to set up QAB Leadership.

And we fundamentally work with businesses to develop their leaders so that individually people are successful, as teams people are successful, and then, you know, the business needs to make money in the end also. And my goal is the most meaningful way to lead is to help others lead, especially as what we're talking about today with the women element.

We need more great leaders in many ways, especially women. So that's the goal of QAB leadership.

Tracey Rashid
00:05:15.585 - 00:05:18.361
Timothy, we've got some big guns on the show today.

Timothy R Andrews
00:05:18.433 - 00:05:23.553
I'm really excited. I'm like, I'm just smiling the whole way through, like, it's like, we're not worthy.

Tracey Rashid
00:05:23.609 - 00:05:41.691
We're not worthy. I'm sure our list, all of our listeners, but our female listeners are going to be really interested to hear what. What you all have to say.

I was going to say you guys, but don't mind. Well, you ladies all have to say, so let's get started. We'll start with you, Michelle.

Could you share a bit about your journey in hospitality and what you're doing right now?

Michelle Moreno
00:05:41.763 - 00:06:52.829
I started my journey right at the bottom. So I came in as a waitress. I got demoted to a food runner because I was a terrible waitress. And then I was annoying the chefs.

So then I got put back on the floor. So I have a classic journey through hospitality. I was a waitress. I became an assistant manager. I became a Restaurant manager.

I fell into openings of restaurants around the world.

I lost count at 50 restaurants and bars, whether they were independents or hotels over the years, which was phenomenal and exciting and always running at a pace of we'll get to burnout at some point.

And now the goal is how do we take all the good parts of the industry that there are and how do we evolve them of the understanding of what the gen generation, the next generation, expects, what business expects nowadays and what skills and tools do everyone need. And a lot of the time it's about difficult conversations and communication of how we navigate the ongoing challenges that we have in our industry.

Because the challenges are coming. It's. It's how we deal with it moving forward.

Timothy R Andrews
00:06:52.957 - 00:07:01.661
Yeah, absolutely. Marsha, could you share a bit about your journey in hospitality? And I know you've touched it in the intro, but what are you doing now?

Marsha Barnett
00:07:01.773 - 00:07:25.245
So I sort of fell in, literally fell into the restaurant actually, because I was helping a friend who had acquired a restaurant. I, I come from like I did a politics degree actually this is my experience. I did a trial day at McDonald's when I was about 15.

I really didn't know what I was stepping into, but over 10 years of running the restaurant, I actually learned a lot. I call it a learning bend. It wasn't a curve, it was like a 90 degree angle.

Tracey Rashid
00:07:25.585 - 00:07:26.993
I like that, I like that.

Timothy R Andrews
00:07:27.049 - 00:07:28.121
I think we've all been there.

Michelle Moreno
00:07:28.193 - 00:07:28.833
I have.

Marsha Barnett
00:07:28.969 - 00:07:57.415
Working on the second UK Caribbean Food Awards, writing a book about setting up a delivery kitchen. I think it's changed since COVID so some of the findings that I discovered pivoting on your business.

So I'm hoping it will be helpful for some of the businesses out there and setting up a membership for the Caribbean Food Collective, which is to act as a trades body for the food and drinks businesses so we can promote, support and connect businesses and shel much.

Shell Righini
00:07:57.535 - 00:09:50.775
Like those that have already shared. I started working in the industry because I needed money.

I had moved to London and I was obviously going to become a number one PR agent and record producer and a famous singer, all of the things.

But weirdly enough, after attempting to do that and doing an internship and not being able to pay my rent, I started to work in restaurants and I started at Gaucho, which is an incredible Argentine state restaurant back in I. It's a frightful amount of years ago.

I think there's only about maybe eight of them and the training that they had, which I believe is still the same, it blew my mind. It was a two week academy it was every day learning about the food, the ingredients, the wine, the cocktails.

There were exams and it was, everybody did the same training regardless of whether you were a food runner or a general manager. And it just blew me away that such a world was out there.

And for somebody who never really kind of found her footing in traditional education and you know, I have a degree and I do have a master's, you know, it wasn't, they weren't easy and you know, I haven't got top grades in them. I finally found something that I was the top at, I was the best.

And I'd been hired to be a door girl, which effectively would have mean opening and closing the door. And I can remember I finished the academy and I grabbed my, the ops director Lawrence. I was like, I can't just open a door.

You can't fill me with this knowledge, expect me to just open a door. And so immediately I was made a waitress and from that, yeah, went on to being head waitress. They called them gurus.

So I would do lots of training for them and that's kind of like how it continued. And then Hawksmoor and some other incredible places.

Always just working in really amazing independent owner led establishments, which has been a really great experience as well as also being a little bit rubbish sometimes, but it's been amazing in terms of its learning opportunities.

Tracey Rashid
00:09:51.115 - 00:09:52.291
Great, thank you.

Monica Or
00:09:52.443 - 00:11:41.275
And Monica, I studied hotel management. It's something I always wanted to do. Basically I read this book called Hotel by Arthur Haney.

There's a TV series, this is a long, long time ago and that inspired me to want to work in hotels. So I studied hotel management down in Torquay.

I'm actually a London girl so I went down to talkie, there's loads of hotels and I did literally the Pot Noodle advert, if you remember that, you know, kind of guests in on reception, then you go to the bar and you serve them a drink and you go to the restaurant and you serve them their dinner. So it's kind of running around. And he got lots of really good experience through that and very much stayed with hotels and then cruise ships.

I wanted to work and travel so I went onto the cruise ships and I worked for Cunard. It's in the Caribbean, which is lovely, different Caribbean island every day.

And that was initially just meant to be six weeks just to cover for someone. I ended up staying there for about two years. So from the Caribbean I then transferred to QE2 and did the world cruise on her as well.

And I thought actually it's about time to get back to land and do normal things with hotels. So I came back. I did a master's after that in Human Resources, and then I ended up working for Hilton.

Actually, before that I worked for Resident Boarding. Then I worked for Hilton, became the HR director, who did openings and refurbishments with them, various of their London hotels.

And then from that I kind of got my passion for training, and that was the key thing that I wanted to do. And so I kind of combined the knowledge of the hotels and the kind of guest relations side of it, the training.

And that's how the consultancy was taught me. Projects I'm working on now. I've recently just relaunched my Starfleet books.

The second edition of that has just been published at the end of last year, a few months ago.

And then from that, I'm now developing a series of workshops which build on the concepts from all the different books, and I'm running those at the minute online.

Timothy R Andrews
00:11:41.395 - 00:11:41.843
Brilliant.

Tracey Rashid
00:11:41.899 - 00:11:43.615
We're covering everything here, aren't we?

Timothy R Andrews
00:11:46.475 - 00:11:51.221
Now that we know who you are, I've got a question for all of you, and actually that includes you, Tracy.

Tracey Rashid
00:11:51.333 - 00:11:51.877
Okay.

Timothy R Andrews
00:11:51.981 - 00:11:58.493
As women, what are the challenges that you faced in hospitality and how have you overcome them?

Shell Righini
00:11:58.589 - 00:13:55.905
What a big question. Oh, my days. We talk about this a lot on the podcast.

And one of the things that we really focus on when we talk about addiction is if alcohol and drugs were the solution to the problem, what problems were they solving?

And we find that especially females are using those kind of substances because of the issues that we have throwing up as our authentic in the industry. So for me, I always constantly found that I had to masculine up my approach.

I mean, there were times where, now I look back, you know, my language was completely different. I would speak quite crudely. It would be lots of this kind of brash banter. I was constantly told to be harder. I'm quite a naturally maternal person.

I was told time and time again to be more like him, being, you know, a different male manager because my approach would be too soft.

And I've been told so many times that I am too soft for this industry and that it will continue to spit me out year after year, and that it was me that needed to leave the industry rather than the industry needing to change. I look back now and I completely abandoned frequently things that I would have done that I felt were the right thing to do.

I put myself in situations as well which weren't always safe.

You know, I would allow myself to be treated in a way kind of, you know, that sexual banter I've shared before about how I used to be called tits by an operations manager and I was a general manager and we would all just laugh. It's things like that that only now that you look back and I connect the dots in terms of why did my drinking become problematic?

I realized how frequently it was tied into the fact that I wasn't allowed to be my maternal, soft, silly, encouraging self because I wasn't masculine enough. I've just done bunny ears on a podcast, by the way, everybody.

Michelle Moreno
00:13:58.405 - 00:15:56.763
No one like just my heart breaks for you, Shell, in that kind of environment. In a way, mine is slightly opposite to that. My maternal, my encouraging. I think character wise. I forced that through whether they wanted it or not.

And because, because I was a forceful character. The problem with the being a woman is you do get labeled. So for your sake there, Charles, you needed to be more masculine.

As I stepped into that role, fully fledged, I was aggressive, I was bossy. And you get given these labels that they're not armor. I'm doing exactly the same as what a male would have been doing.

I quite quickly, I was in decision making rooms in different cultures as well. So I can remember 2005 that how am I going to make myself be seen and heard?

And I used clothing and extroverted clothing to make sure that when they came in the room, I wasn't just asked, are you going to take the notes and make the tea? Which I still was asked regularly through my career because we're nurturing or maternal. And in the end my notes were better. So fine.

In my mind though, you have these obstacles and challenges and navigations of behavior that are very different to a male counterpart. And as Shel said, I don't think when I was going through it, I was aware how I was navigating that position I was in.

It's only now, as I'm older and I reflect back that I realize that that was what was going on consistently.

So not only do you have your work that you have to do, you have how are you behaving in this situation to make sure that what you believe in is being heard and taken seriously.

Monica Or
00:15:56.859 - 00:17:23.195
It's actually interesting what you're saying there because I was just, I was thinking back to like when I was HR director in one of my first hotels. I was like the tough HR director. No nonsense, this is how it is. Just sort yourselves out.

And I kind of carried that through to one of the other hotels and then the hotel manager to me. Look, Monica, I know you're the HR director But we have the nurturing side. Please, can you be like the soft HR manager?

You know, at that point, I'd never really kind of thought of what I was doing. I thought, well, in the last hotel it worked and it got results. So I kind of stuck doing that.

And then obviously, as you evolve and get more experience and what have you, then, you know, actually you need to change your leadership style depending where you are, who you're with, etc.

And I remember one of the things I did one of the hotels and it was having our kind of regular head of departments meeting and, you know, each head of department would do their little bits and it came to my perception as well. And we're having one of these kind of issues in the hotel.

Yeah, we've got to do this, we've got to do that, and people talk and talk and talk and nothing happens. So I was getting really kind of frustrated with this. So I said, right, I'm going to do a totally different tact in this meeting.

So when it came to my book, I put on some music. A little less conversation, a little more action, please. So I put that on. So it all starts off all jazz and, oh, yeah, what's going to go on today?

What's Monica doing now? And then they heard the words, okay, yeah, we get it, got the message.

Michelle Moreno
00:17:23.655 - 00:17:25.295
And that's all they had to do.

Monica Or
00:17:25.415 - 00:17:28.475
So you just have to change your tactics depending who you're with.

Marsha Barnett
00:17:31.215 - 00:18:01.695
I had to learn quickly. I had to contend with male Caribbean chefs that didn't want to. They were a lot of times older than me and didn't want to sort of take orders.

I'd be like, oh, are we having any fish today? It's on the menu. Minoan, cook it today. I'm like, well, it's on the menu. And so it was like a. I had to learn quickly.

In the end, what I actually did is learn how to cook everything because then nobody could hold me over a barrel. I wasn't prepared for it. But I soon quickly learned it is.

Doriane Woo
00:18:01.735 - 00:18:40.671
Mind blowing because where I used to do so many pre openings, I would be within male environments of building work quite often. And I remember clearly we were opening the Hoxton 2006. Yes. In the East London one on Great Eastern Street.

And I was telling a, you know, a builder, we've got to wrap this up, we've got softs coming in, friends and family are coming in. And as the restaurant manager was coming down, he went, I'm going to go and speak to your boss.

And luckily the restaurant manager went, she is the boss. And you forget that you had to deal with this. Like just get the bonket moving. You know, don't worry about whether I'm a male or a female.

Marsha Barnett
00:18:40.783 - 00:19:15.755
You remind me of a time I've turned up to the restaurant and there's builders inside the shop. Shop. I was like, what are you doing here? And what I realized is that the landlord just wanted, obviously wanted to do something with the pipes.

And I just said get out because how can I say, how can I. I actually called the landlord nicely and said, did I miss an email? I've come here and there's some.

I've sent them home because I've got to use the kitchen. Do you get what I mean? You had to, you have to think on your toes and address things.

So I was there being sort of that masculine, get out to the things. No, you can't do this. And then I had to be all polite to the, to the landlord.

Timothy R Andrews
00:19:16.525 - 00:19:42.145
Most of my seconds that actually really run the business on a day to day basis were women.

And we had that where we had people, suppliers sidestepping them to try and get to me because I was like they're the decision maker on this, you need to go back to them. But it got me furious. I used to, I mean I canceled suppliers because of it just. But I saw it. Once you see it, you can't unsee it.

Michelle Moreno
00:19:45.115 - 00:19:45.899
It's hard.

Marsha Barnett
00:19:46.027 - 00:20:08.659
There was this neighbor, quite a sweet guy, but he just would be like, I don't want to get you in trouble, but could you sort of bins. And I actually pretended for the whole 10 years that I was just an employee and yeah, right then I'll find out.

I'll let them know and just sort it out. Yeah, I just, I just thought it was no point. If this is what you think, just, just go.

And if I'm probably, probably thought I was a really good member, committed member of staff.

Shell Righini
00:20:08.747 - 00:20:19.485
And if I'm probably, probably thought I was a really good member, committed member of staff.You got a really angry customer. I want to see the manager. I would normally then go say to them, they're not in today.

Tracey Rashid
00:20:20.865 - 00:21:32.439
I mean I've had a slightly different. Because I started my business so I'm a sole trader so it's a slightly different angle.

But I always found that because I'm a cake artist slash baker, you could call it and I think the misconception is women do cakes and bake and you know that kind of thing that it almost wasn't expected rather role that I'm female. So it wasn't so bad.

I'm also A professional pastry chef, and I know a lot of my friends who are, and I've seen how they have to deal in the kitchen, where it is a quite masculine place. A lot of what you were saying, Cheryl.

I've heard so many stories of the banter, of the nicknames, and men never tend to have those sexual nicknames, which is always quite interesting. They're quite fun and jazzy. But we seem to get the kind of more. Well, the more un.PC ones, I will say.

So I know it's definitely out there, and it definitely does cause a problem. And you either expected to either deal with it or leave, like you said, which isn't fair.

It should be the industry that adapts and helps us to be comfortable in our everyday role, in our everyday work. So what can the industry do to better support women in achieving leadership roles in hospitality?

Shell Righini
00:21:32.607 - 00:24:08.929
It's a really difficult one because I think there's a really fine line between celebrating any group of people, any marginalized group, and it feeling like a tick box exercise or, you know, an uplift. You know, women don't want to be singled out as being better or different.

We want to be rewarded because of our value, regardless of whether or not we've got boobs, you know, and it's the same, I believe, for anybody. So it's not necessarily.

And the more kind of conversations I've been having with people, like, for example, I did an episode with a dear friend of mine, Phoebe, who's transgender, listening to how she kind of shows up in the world and the similarities between how she had to pretend to be a man, even though she felt like a woman in her male body. And the way that I was showing up at work was just mind blowing. But again, you know, they. She just wants to be treated the way she is.

Not as better, not as special, not as less than. Not then. Not that. Not more than either. And I think for me, it's about the industry not kind of having to. I mean, we'll still take the awards.

Don't drop. You know, if you. If you want to give us them, that's fine. But I think it's about the industry really creating an even playing field.

And that includes supporting women who have children and who are struggling to balance a career in the industry, because it really doesn't support, in that respect, women who. Going through perimenopause, menopause, women who. I mean. And again, this is for everybody.

I mean, if you look at the LGBTQ community and again, how they show up. I have a very good friend who is queer, who again, in that kitchen environment, they have felt that they couldn't just be themselves.

They've had to man up to get ahead. So I think it's almost like it's more than just having to create safer spaces for women.

I think it's about creating safe spaces for just people to be them, to celebrate them on an even level. And I also think that there are a lot of men in our industry who also do not want to be this archetypal asshole. Screaming, shouting.

And again, they end up being guests on my podcast because they suffer with imposter syndrome. They go home, they drink, they use because they're having to perform as a character that's not authentic to become a success.

Tracey Rashid
00:24:09.097 - 00:24:13.245
Yeah. Mental health as well gets affected 100%.

Michelle Moreno
00:24:16.985 - 00:26:18.305
I also think there needs to be work done by ourselves as women as well. So if you look at how many women there are at the entry levels in hospitality, we're pretty even keel. And as we go up and up and up, we become less.

I don't always think it's because of the life cycle a woman has to go through. I also think we don't take enough risks or we don't raise our hands enough to be able to step up to them roles.

There's a wonderful academic called Frances Frey at Harvard University, and when she went there and there wasn't so many females in the senior spaces, she thought, we've got an issue here with gender equality, though she's an academic. So she went, let's go and look at what the data says and what the facts say. And to get promoted in academia, you have to release numerous of papers.

And it seemed that males were putting out numerous of papers, whether they were good or bad. And women were sat with the one paper trying to make sure it was great and hadn't even put it out.

So there's work to be done by the leadership team on empowering younger women in their skills and their confidence. And I have a real frustration against the term imposter syndrome. Not because I don't believe it's true.

I believe that we're starting to wear as an identity which is going to hold us back. It's a process of learning that we don't know yet and that should be encouraged. And so there's work. What is the responsibility on the leaders?

It's creating these equity spaces where people believe that they can take the risks and the challenges to step up, to take the roles that are there, not just that people aren't being let in the room. We have to knock the door and go through it ourselves too, though, through these conversations, it might give people the confidence to do that.

Tracey Rashid
00:26:18.465 - 00:26:51.335
And I think that's a great example you just gave Michelle. Sorry.

In regards to the academic progress, because it's very similar in regards to recruitment, where women will want to tick off way more of the skills, the experience, the knowledge than the men will to apply for that job even in the first place. So we're almost going for 100%. Whereas, you know, if you go for a job that's 100, you'll be bored of it in five minutes anyway.

So you should always have that gap for learning. But it's a real. It's not a massive gap, but it's significant enough to stop females apply for jobs that they could most definitely get anyway.

Marsha Barnett
00:26:52.035 - 00:26:59.975
I think a work life balance sort of policy in hospitality would go a long way for women.

Monica Or
00:27:00.515 - 00:28:01.357
Yeah, I think the inclusive practice is definitely. And also looking at kind of mentoring in like how to empower women in the industry. Not just mentoring that we know and love.

And the hotels that I've worked in, when I was at management director level, there was only one hotel where there was a female general manager. And it was interesting because again, I never thought about it at the time.

So when you reflect back and what would happen is the end of every single day. It just became a thing that I'd go into a.

Into her office and we'd sit down, we'd have a long, long chat about the day and what was going well and all that sort of stuff. And I guess she was kind of mentoring me and I didn't realize at the time she was mentoring me.

I don't know if it was a female thing or no, because we were the only two women at that level.

But more of those sorts of things should be happening like, you know, for women in the industry with the mentoring side, you know, I think a lot of women aren't as confident as they get higher up. And so, you know, it's just kind of bringing those sort of skills out.

Michelle Moreno
00:28:01.461 - 00:29:15.535
I think that seeing people is what you're, you know, seeing people who were already in the position. I was at a. I was on a talk the other day at a wonderful group called Ladies of Restaurants. The expiring part of it is it's really generational.

There's some of us who are, you know, a little bit wiser and the enthusiasm of youth and myself and my friend, and she's just finished as an FB director, she's moved on to a new role. We're talking with someone we know who's younger.

And when I spoke to Berta the next day, she said, just listening to you two and what you've achieved, she said, you don't know how exciting that is for me. And she asked this question, she said, did you have that person as a woman to look up to when you were going through this?

And I got really emotional and went, no, I just worked it out on my own and I didn't realize so that these communities, these one on one chats, these communities of them seeing us doing this work makes them believe, oh no, I can do this and I can ask advice along the way. So I'm the whole here for your wonderful GM Monica and them chats.

Timothy R Andrews
00:29:19.085 - 00:30:02.969
I've had a few conversations about this with people outside of the industry. So when I say people, I mean specifically women. So for example, some of you I do know follow her. Sangeeta Pillai from the Masala podcast.

We've had quite a lot of chats about women not having their voice and not feeling they have a voice. And I think you've touched on some of that. We've talked about imposter syndrome, but also actually some of the work maybe is other people.

I feel like it's other people's voices are controlling us or controlling women, particularly about what they're going to go out there and say, but is it. And it's a case of maybe stepping out of that.

But it's perhaps a lot easier as a man for me to say that than it is because whatever you do, it seems like you're going to be judged and you feel like you're being.

Michelle Moreno
00:30:03.017 - 00:30:40.855
Judged also, you've got to understand there's a lot of judgment going on ourselves. So if you think about the era when we're talking into senior management levels, we're also having to decide, am I going to have children?

Am I not going to have children? Do I need to get the judgment is already on ourselves. It's so complex of what we have to think about for what we're making decisions for ourselves.

We're on a time constraint and on that we're supposed to be stepping into these leadership roles and it's overwhelming. And again, you don't realize it's overwhelming. And then like you say, Tim, you'll get judgment on top that you have to respond to as well.

Timothy R Andrews
00:30:44.625 - 00:30:56.257
Let's turn this positively confidence can be sometimes a barrier for women aiming for higher roles. What advice would you give to women in hospitality to boost their Confidence and their visibility.

Shell Righini
00:30:56.401 - 00:33:15.767
For me, I would say it is a really, really. In fact, it's already been touched on. It's about creating that sisterhood, that finding your people. Get a mentor.

There are incredible mentor programs out there. There's be hospitality, there's.

There's a few kind of different programs, but by having somebody almost that's treaded those, Treaded that past before you, that's really, really helpful. But also creating a community of support around you. You know, like, don't look at other females in the restaurant, in the kitchen as competition.

Look at how you can collaborate, because collaboration over competition will always win. And if we kind of build each other up together, that's, you know, where we've got a real power.

And one of the greatest gifts for me about coming into recovery is that previous to that, I did view women as competition. I also viewed women as. I was scared of them. I was scared of women. I was scared of. I wanted to be the top female dog of a whole load of men.

You know, that for me, felt like success being like a female. I would even go as far as. And it's not. That's.

And I am ashamed of it as not hiring females because I found them harder to manage than men, because men, I could flirt my way through things. I could. Felt like I could kind of get what I wanted from them. But females, because we're bloody clever, we don't hold that shit.

And, and, and again, I think that it's about really challenging that. And one of. Like I said, one of the greatest gifts of recovery is now realizing the power of a group of women. It's phenomenal.

And there was, like Michelle mentioned as well, the ladies of restaurants, you know, there are so many incredible females in our industry. Connect with them, become one of them. Build your own sisterhood. Because the power of a female force is one to be reckoned with.

If I could tell my younger self, I would say there is absolutely no shame in asking for help. Get yourself, follow people that you look at and think, hey, I want what they have. Rather than trying to be who you're not.

Marsha Barnett
00:33:15.911 - 00:33:25.639
Just go. You just gotta go for it. And don't look back and almost tunnel vision of what your. What your focus is. And definitely get. Get a mentor. Definitely.

Michelle Moreno
00:33:25.767 - 00:33:53.905
I would add on to the sisterhood element as well. I think networking is seen like a dirty word, though. It is the key to open doors. And I don't think that has to be female.

I think that there are men out there who will mention your name when you're in the room and we're not realizing that tactically they're all getting the next job because they've all gone to the networking event that we're like, oh, no, I'd rather just go and find out what Shel's up to today.

Timothy R Andrews
00:33:54.065 - 00:33:56.745
Thank you. And last but not least, Monica.

Monica Or
00:33:56.865 - 00:34:42.512
Likewise. I mean, networking opportunities, I think are always key. I'm a big networker, I'm always out there and I hate networking.

It was one of my, it started off as being one of those challenges. Just get out there, find three people you've never spoken to, all that sort of stuff. Yeah. And now I just, I just do it all the time.

I think it's also really important that we have visible kind of role models, really showcase the successful women that are in leadership positions. So people know about us, shout about it. And when people think of, you know, a successful hotel manager, whatever position it's in the.

They think of a female. Yeah. Rather than automatically thinking of a male, those sorts of things. So, yeah, very much like what you're saying, Michelle.

We just need to put our hands up, shout about it, say, look, we're here.

Tracey Rashid
00:34:42.648 - 00:34:44.304
Absolutely. Self promotion.

Marsha Barnett
00:34:44.464 - 00:35:19.313
I went to, I went to a networking event and there was a lady, her name was Dawn Burton.

She had the same business as me and I, and she, I, everybody I spoke to, I wrote down and when I went on my list I was like, this one's not going to want to talk to me. But I called her anyway and we ended up co founding the Caribbean Food Collective and the awards.

So we just had a chat and we was, we was aligned in the same. We, you know, we had the same thoughts and visions in the business. Having, you know, again, it's about having somebody.

Because I was running the restaurant by myself, I didn't really have anyone to speak to. So speaking to another woman out of it, we set up another organization and.

Timothy R Andrews
00:35:19.329 - 00:35:21.737
I got a really good co host out of networking.

Tracey Rashid
00:35:21.881 - 00:35:42.073
Yes, you did, you did, darling. It's been an enlightening discussion with all of you fabulous ladies today.

The journey towards equal representation and empowerment in hospitality leadership is ongoing. But with voices like yours leading the change, the future looks promising.

Shell Righini
00:35:42.209 - 00:35:42.433
Yeah.

Timothy R Andrews
00:35:42.449 - 00:35:51.199
I want to thank you all. I mean, it's. Unfortunately, the time that we have is literally too short. I feel like we, we haven't even scratched the surface of this.

Tracey Rashid
00:35:51.367 - 00:35:53.783
This has been number one. We need a part two, I think.

Timothy R Andrews
00:35:53.879 - 00:36:16.887
Yeah, I think we will. I think we will. I mean, I'm sitting here just still learning, so. Thank you for all coming to the show.

I'm hoping that our listeners will, I know they will take something away from this and listen to it again because there's loads of information in here and I think one of the things we need to remember is that every step that we take towards diversity and inclusion is a step towards a richer and.

Michelle Moreno
00:36:16.911 - 00:36:21.335
More vibrant hospitality industry and a more success, successful industry.

Tracey Rashid
00:36:21.955 - 00:36:36.171
Thank you so much for being our guest on the show today. I mean, my. I mean, as a female in hospitality, it's been an absolute privilege to hear you speak and just hear your stories and your journey.

So thank you for your time and yeah, we look forward to speaking with you again.

Shell Righini
00:36:36.363 - 00:36:37.335
Thank you.

Marsha Barnett
00:36:37.755 - 00:36:39.123
Thank you for having me.

Shell Righini
00:36:39.259 - 00:36:40.135
Thank you.

Michelle Moreno
00:36:40.435 - 00:36:41.695
Thank you, everyone.

Tracey Rashid
00:36:47.445 - 00:37:16.517
This episode is proudly sponsored by Graphic Kitchen, our esteemed brand partner.

Known for their expertise in crafting unique brand experiences, Graphic Kitchen excels in bespoke brand strategy, branding, menu design, brand activation, website design and marketing for the hospitality industry. Transform your spaces into captivating experiences with their innovative, creative solutions today by exploring what Graphic Kitchen has to offer.

Timothy R Andrews
00:37:16.541 - 00:37:32.925
Please remember to check our extra resources on our website talkinghospitality.com where we have more episodes on the subject of leadership blogs for more research and courses that can help provide you with the skills and knowledge needed to help you or your colleagues who are dealing with some of those issues raised today.